CEL Soap Opera

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
02/04/2014 at 16:03 • Filed to: None

I couldn't get my VW inspected because it had a lit CEL (emissions testing FTW). So I took it to the shop and they checked the code and replaced the oxygen sensor. They said the system would reset after about 50 miles, but it didn't. So I took it back to the shop and now they're saying its giving a catalytic converter fault code. Which is interesting, because I thought the CC had self-destructed years ago, but the car always passed inspection. UPDATE: As I was typing, the shop called back and said the CC needs to be replaced, cheapest he can do it is $675. Fuck.

DISCUSSION (71)

Casper > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:06

CCs will go out due to bad O2 sensors or other changes that cause the car to run rich for long periods of time. How long was the CEL on before you took it in?

GeorgeyBoy > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:06

He can't reset the light for you?

505Turbeaux > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:06

whatever shop put an O2 sensor on it and didnt clear the codes expecting them to go away can suck a bag of dongs. And now they want more money? Go pick that thing up and never go back. Most OBD2 codes are persistent until a reset is performed

Details on the car please, year and model?

wacopalypsenow > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:08

Cat delete!!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:10

What VW? I have a spare cat for a Mk3 4 cyl golf/jetta for cheap if you need it. I bought it thinking my cat was junk but the pipe off the back just rotted.

GeorgeyBoy > GeorgeyBoy
02/04/2014 at 16:10

Also was it a different code than the first time? Im guessing not. A drive cycle could take more than 50 miles, there isn't really a set distance especially to cancel the code. Also what was the code the first time, inefficiency code or what?

Go buy an OBDII bluetooth scanner on ebay for $5. Read the codes yourself and erase them yourself all in the comfort of your own home.

ttyymmnn > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 16:10

They said the light would go out on its own after 50 miles or so. When I took it back today, they said they would try to reset it. Apparently, after doing so, they got a new code for the CC.

2001 VW Golf 2.0.

ttyymmnn > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/04/2014 at 16:11

2001 Golf 2.0.

The WB > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:11

WTF, $675 for a cat replacement? That's an hours work, and a cat can't run more than $150. What is he smoking?

ttyymmnn > The WB
02/04/2014 at 16:12

I am not above picking the car up and taking it somewhere else.

Textured Soy Protein > Casper
02/04/2014 at 16:14

Yes, this, exactly.

On my old Miata I had a coil pack go bad which caused a misfire. First it started throwing CEL codes for O2 sensor. Fixed the coil pack, cleared the codes, but the misfiring had already fouled up the catalytic converter.

In my case I got lucky, it was a California emissions car, so even though I was in Wisconsin there had been a longer warranty on the California emissions equipment and the dealer replaced the cat for free.

Nibbles > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:16

How many miles on it???

ttyymmnn > Nibbles
02/04/2014 at 16:17

191k.

505Turbeaux > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:18

wrong wrong wrong. Anyone that turns a wrench knows you need to do a hard reset after you fix the offending issue. I am guessing here, that the reader they had was out of commission the day your car was in there, they said ok most common issue is O2 sensor, we'll do that. And then fed you a line it would go out on its own knowing you would come back on a day it was up and running and they would reset.

Furthermore, there is no direct code for a bad cat on the VW OBD code chart, so I would question the diagnostic technique they are using http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/… Ask what code is pointing to the car and post back here. Ill be in front of my desk till 7 EST

Argh now I am steamed on your behalf.

Casper > Textured Soy Protein
02/04/2014 at 16:19

A lot of people destroy their cats through their own "tuning" because they mess with exhausts and intakes which screws with a lot of the mix. They drive them around way outside of what is stoichiometrically efficient pretending to have added power. It also happens a lot on motorcycles, but they usually don't have cats in the same sense to worry about.

ttyymmnn > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 16:19

I'll do that. I just called a muffler shop and they quoted me $300 p/l.

Nibbles > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:21

Definitely a lot of miles on that cat if it's original. Rock Auto's got 'em fairly cheap if you don't live in CA or NY

505Turbeaux > GeorgeyBoy
02/04/2014 at 16:23

02 sensor monitoring is usually one of the first monitors to reset. On a VW usually the monitors are up after the second start from cold. But yeah 10-20$ bluetooth and you are done with it. Clear it before you head out to emissions!

ttyymmnn > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 16:24

The codes they got for the (I think he said) bank 1 ox sensor were P1176 and P0139. He said they reset, but it "must have come right back on." I know it was lit when I picked it up, because they told me it would go out on its own. Now it's giving a P0422 on the CC.

ttyymmnn > Nibbles
02/04/2014 at 16:25

It's original, and I'm in TX. I think the CC imploded some years ago. There was a noise under the car that sounded like marbles being shaken in a metal can. After a few months, it went away. I assumed it was the CC, and that the pieces had eventually found their way out onto the road through the tailpipe.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:28

Damn. Mine won't work. It uses three bolts to connect to the front pipe but yours uses four.

ttyymmnn > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/04/2014 at 16:31

Thanks for the offer. I did a little bit of Googling, with my just about zero knowledge of car parts shopping, and I found prices all over the board. I found a muffler-only shop here in town that will do it for $300 P/L.

505Turbeaux > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:32

before you do anything, there is a recall on those for the cat converter, though I am not sure if it is closed yet or not. Call dealer with VIN and check it out. They had faulty cats, and I know people up through 2011 they were getting a new cat installed by VW as long as the post cat O2 (which is what the original codes were from) has been replaced. Worth a phone call at least. I will dig some more info on the recall in the meantime

Edit: vw extended the converter warranty to 10y 100K, which you are out of, but this is a known issue. Bring it to the muffler shop

crowmolly > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:33

P1176 is bank 1 O2 sensor 2- so after the cat.

For what it's worth, they tried the cheap repair first (bad O2) before hitting you up for the faulty cat.

Not resetting the code right away is bush league but it does not seem like they are just straight up screwing you over.

ttyymmnn > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 16:37

Do you think $300 out the door is reasonable? I don't plan to keep this car forever, but I also don't want to keep pouring money into it. I've got a kitchen to remodel!

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.

ttyymmnn > crowmolly
02/04/2014 at 16:38

Screwing me on the CC replacement cost? I called a muffler shop who quoted my $300 P/L.

crowmolly > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 16:39

Not exactly.

If you do not drive around for long enough the recently-cleared code will read as "NOT READY" and you can fail.

This has been proven MANY times over by guys trying to get their cat-delete cars through NJ state emissions.

What I'd try is to drive the car a lot to get the cat good and freaking hot, then clear the code, drive around a bit more and try to get through.

505Turbeaux > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:39

all day that isnt bad at all. $675 was a bit tough for a 200K mile vdub cat. Only way you are going to get it cheaper is to do it yourself. And exhaust work is one of the things I hate the most

crowmolly > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:41

Depends!

An OEM VW part? Then maybe not.

An aftermarket? Then maybe.

Muffler shop is probably using an aftermarket. I'd go there. It's not like they are building you an F1 engine or something like that.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carc…

505Turbeaux > crowmolly
02/04/2014 at 16:42

true, up here in Maine it is funny (my county only). They are supposed to report on the inspection slip any incomplete monitors, and usually they just check for active codes and whitewash the monitor part with checks.

ttyymmnn > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 16:42

There's no way I could do this myself. I have neither the time, the tools nor the skill. So I'll take your advice, and buy you a drink if I could.

505Turbeaux > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:43

virtual drinks accepted :) good luck man!

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:45

If you can avoid a California cat it will be cheaper. I did my own for $125 with a Magnaflow bought off of Amazon, but the California models were all at least $100 more. Still, that's no $675.

Is it a bolt-on flange, or welded in? If it's bolts, that's a no-brainer. If it's welded, you buy the part yourself and take it to a muffler shop to have the welding work done, not a fence welder.

EDIT: my car is OBD-I so your cat will cost more, as it has an O2 sensor, either built-in or a threaded port for one. Alternatively, you could screw a "mini-cat" inline with the sensor, which is actually a "cheat" that puts a piece of catalyst between the exhaust flow and the sensor but not enough to actually scrub the tailpipe emissions.

ttyymmnn > crowmolly
02/04/2014 at 16:45

Exactly. I had planned to start looking for a replacement at 200k, and I really just need to pass inspection this time and maybe once more. So something cheap is right up my alley.

ttyymmnn > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 16:46

Thanks. Cheers!

Kinja'd!!!

ttyymmnn > With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username
02/04/2014 at 16:48

Not in CA. I found a muffler shop that would do it for $300 P/L. For the age and expected longevity of the car, I'm going that route. I couldn't do it myself.

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:50

Good find. Let us know how it goes.

crowmolly > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:51

FWIW they are supposed to fail you if it's clamped on, so you can't bust out the hacksaw and put it on yourself unless you have a welder.

ttyymmnn > With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username
02/04/2014 at 16:51

Thanks. Will repair and report.

Dunnik > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:53

Kinja'd!!!

505Turbeaux > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 16:55

mmm tasty lager. Thanks!!!

CAFIFTY > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 17:06

I have calibrated this diagnostic before (p0420 &P0430) for a different OEM. But i am assuming VW also uses the pre and post 02 sensor to measure the oxygen capacity of the catalyst. Which is why the shop replaced the O2 sensor first. And there might be logic to not clearing the codes. The catalyst health monitor is a intrusive diagnostics that slews your fueling rich then lean to measure the oxygen capacity, because of this the ECU only allows it to run once per trip. But when a fault is present it might allow it to run multiple times per trip.

Moral of the story: Federal law requires emissions components to last 120,000 miles. If you have less then that the dealership has to replace it under warranty.

Also. Catalysts are expensive as balls. They have expensive ass metals in them. $675 is low.

ttyymmnn > CAFIFTY
02/04/2014 at 17:09

This car has 191k miles on it, original CC. I found a muffler shop that quoted $300 P/L. Since I don't plan to keep that car much longer, I'm going that direction. If I can get it through emissions this year, and maybe next, I'll be happy.

CAFIFTY > Casper
02/04/2014 at 17:10

OEMs put a lot of effort in modeling cat temperatures in order to protect them. After market to0ns will upset these models and likely disabled the cat protection logic completely in order to give you 1-3 more hp. If the OEM could have given you 3 more HP they would have, trust me.

Casper > CAFIFTY
02/04/2014 at 17:12

Well, they would have should it have met the market segment, legal, environmental, and budget requirements while still being able to be warrantied. It's all a huge compromise.

You can tune a car up and still keep it cat friendly... because you actually should be doing that anyway. Most people just don't work very hard to put hardly any consideration into the AFR unless they are running a turbo system. Even then it's a crap shoot.

CAFIFTY > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 17:16

Your misinformed. Catalyst monitor has been required since well before 2001.

Even if he wasn't setting 02 sensors codes its a good idea to change them before replacing the costly catalyst. The 02 sensors is what the cat diagnostic uses to measure its health.

505Turbeaux > CAFIFTY
02/04/2014 at 17:18

I was only looking at the P1XXX and P2XXX codes, I didnt realize P0XXX werent on the sheet. It is a well known problems on the early 2000's VW though, somewhat faulty cats caused a warranty extension

CAFIFTY > Casper
02/04/2014 at 17:19

AFR is just one of many variables that affect cat temperatures.

Casper > CAFIFTY
02/04/2014 at 17:20

Yes, but it's the primary one that most people destabilize to damage their cats the most deliberately.

CAFIFTY > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 17:22

191,000. Damn. Well, I'd go the $300 route also.

With all this said there is a good chance that this car would still pass your states emission test (besides the light being present). This is a tricky diagnostic and is usually calibrated conservatively

CAFIFTY > 505Turbeaux
02/04/2014 at 17:25

All the cool codes start with P0XXX!

ttyymmnn > CAFIFTY
02/04/2014 at 17:25

They won't even look at the car of the CEL is lit. So I've got to get it turned off.

CAFIFTY > Casper
02/04/2014 at 17:30

I'd argue spark timing is more common way to damage

If your tuning your vehicle you likely to try to command more fuel. 9 of of 10 times slightly more fuel is actually safer for your cats. Catalyst protection will actually command a fuel enrichment past the LBT fueling point in order to decrease the temperature.

I'm just intellectually masturbating at this point though. Has nothing to do with this guys issue

CAFIFTY > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 17:35

Figured. VW screwed ya. Some German engine calibration engineer is to blame.

Justino6969 > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 18:18

Mk4's had a recall on the catalytic converter, I believe. You might want to check what it was and if yours had the recall or not. Also, that's a very high quote. Any way you can put a new one in yourself? They only run around $150 (with a resonator delete to make it sound better ;)) or you could put a universal one in for even cheaper, though that may require some cutting.

ttyymmnn > Justino6969
02/04/2014 at 18:26

The recall expired about 90k miles ago :( I have no way to do the work myself, but I found a quote for $300 P/L. I'm going that route. Thanks for reply.

Justino6969 > ttyymmnn
02/04/2014 at 18:32

No problem. $300 sounds a LOT more reasonable. Best of luck to you.

TwoFortified > With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username
02/04/2014 at 21:23

...um...Is your implication that, because your car is OBD-I, it doesn't have an O2 sensor?

...because my car is OBD-I as well (OMG SOULMATES!) and it has an O2 sensor. I'm quite certain, as I replaced the old one with a new one a couple weeks ago...

Rev Hang Slows My Roll > CAFIFTY
02/04/2014 at 21:38

What if my car is throwing a PoS code?

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > TwoFortified
02/04/2014 at 22:05

It has an O2 sensor, but only pre-cat. OBD-II has an additional O2 sensor inside the cat itself.

EDIT: It's possible that this was a regulation that went into effect near the changeover to OBD-II and is not strictly the same thing, but certainly there was a time before OBD-II with no secondary O2 sensor, and there is a time since OBD-II with an additional O2 sensor required. The inbetween time and exact changeover is fuzzy to me.

CAFIFTY > Rev Hang Slows My Roll
02/05/2014 at 12:01

Then you are tripping balls

Chairman Kaga > ttyymmnn
02/11/2014 at 17:23

We finally took the wife's Camry to Juke Auto on 7th and Shady Lane (east side) to see if they could figure out her CEL issue. He said it was the charcoal canister, probably, and would cost about $600 to fix. Or he could reset the ECU, clear the CEL, drive around until the sensors went to ready mode, then quickly have it inspected before it was tripped again. So we paid the man $60, won the inspection, and got the car cleared for one more year.

ttyymmnn > Chairman Kaga
02/11/2014 at 17:26

Win!

Chairman Kaga > ttyymmnn
02/11/2014 at 18:24

Juke seems to be pretty great, by the way. Heavy metal dudes. Shop owner is an Aussie.

brianbrannon > CAFIFTY
02/11/2014 at 18:51

Federal Emission Warranty is 8 years/80,000 miles not 120,000. Reseting the light can reset the readiness codes also. They take about 50 miles of driving to run and you can't get an inspection until those readiness codes all run and pass. I want to try cleaning a catalytic converter but have never had one fail.

CAFIFTY > brianbrannon
02/12/2014 at 12:58

You may be right. I do know 120K is the "end of useful life" measurement. Seems silly that emissions testing is done at 120k but the warranty is only for 80k.

Cleaning the catalstic? As in driving around in suck a way that catalytic tempatures are just below cat protection. That could help.

brianbrannon > CAFIFTY
02/12/2014 at 19:08

I'm thinking a water injection system to try to steam clean the cat while the engine runs. Or pulling it off and maybe using oven cleaner.

CAFIFTY > brianbrannon
02/13/2014 at 13:46

My gut tells me that won't work. You might damage the wash coat or something but I'm not a chemistry major or familiar enough with catalysis manufacturing to be 100%

You will be better of running the car under higher loads where the cat temperatures are higher, this will burn of any sulfur or other unwanted contamination from the cat. The key is to do this without going into power enrichment and cat protection which is hard without having access to the ecu signals. Doing 10 or so 70% throttle pulls would be a okay bet. This is commonly done in the industry.

brianbrannon > CAFIFTY
02/13/2014 at 18:32

The only way to make the cat get hotter is to dump excess fuel in. That doesn't seem like a viable way to clean fuel burning deposits. Getting it hot enough to turn deposits into vapor will definitely melt the catalyst

CAFIFTY > brianbrannon
02/17/2014 at 23:35

Trust me, it works.

brianbrannon > CAFIFTY
02/18/2014 at 16:19

Why would I trust your opinion if you don't even know the federal emission regs? Have you even seen an overheated catalytic converter?